Please note this episode contains mention of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. After moving into a remote home, single mom Shannon quickly realizes she and her young son are not alone. As spirits begin to latch onto her son, Shannon does research on the previous tenants and uncovers a dark tragic past. Seeking to end her torment, Shannon attempts to close the portal between worlds, but when a malevolent spirit becomes trapped, a violent series of attacks escalates to a horrifying confrontation.
Please note this episode contains mention of suicide. Listener discretion is advised.
After moving into a remote home, single mom Shannon quickly realizes she and her young son are not alone. As spirits begin to latch onto her son, Shannon does research on the previous tenants and uncovers a dark tragic past. Seeking to end her torment, Shannon attempts to close the portal between worlds, but when a malevolent spirit becomes trapped, a violent series of attacks escalates to a horrifying confrontation.
If you or someone you know is struggling with depression and/or suicidal thoughts, call the national suicide prevention lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 or visit https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Learn how to help someone in crisis at https://www.bethe1to.com/
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Find episode transcript here: https://a-ghost-ruined-my-life-with-eli-roth.simplecast.com/episodes/portal-to-hell
Eli Roth [00:00:01] I'm Eli Roth. A common theme in horror movies is that a dark entity will latch on to a child and use them as a way to get into our world. Think of Poltergeist, The Exorcist, the list goes on and on. A child making contact with the other side is often the first indication that something's going to go very wrong, and it's popular in movies for a reason. In real life, children are extremely vulnerable to paranormal attacks because of their innocence.
Jamie [00:00:31] OK.
Shannon [00:00:36] Who are you talking to bud?
Eli Roth [00:00:43] That's Jamie, the young son of Shannon Rogers. Years ago, when Jamie was just three, Shannon's home became a hotspot for paranormal activity. What began as her son, talking to a strange, unseen figure, quickly turned into a waking nightmare that Shannon still grapples with to this day.
Shannon [00:01:04] Sorry it's just. It's hard for me to revisit energy like that because I get so scared that it's goona come back around. I'm Shannon Rogers, and A Ghost Ruined My Life.
Eli Roth [00:01:20] This is the first time Shannon has ever told her story, and these events clearly had a profound effect on her. What you're about to hear is Shannon detailing her experience to us, combined with dramatic recreations from my TV series A Ghost Ruined My Life on Discovery. Plus. We went through hundreds of true paranormal accounts looking for the most terrifying ones to share with you. This is Portal to Hell. When our crew sat down with Shannon, she told us that she and Jamie had been crashing on her mother's couch.
Shannon [00:01:57] When I moved out of the home that we will be talking about, I moved into here with my mother.
Eli Roth [00:02:03] But before the horror really began, Shannon's life was somewhat idyllic. In December of 2019, she and Jamie moved into an old house in the remote countryside. Picture a sprawling field surrounded by deep woods. The property even has a stream running through it. It's over 100 years old, but the current owners haven't lived there for a long time. They rent it out, and the home has had a number of tenants over the years.
Shannon [00:02:30] I moved into the house in December with my three year old son. It was a little outdated, but had a really good rate on my rent. I mean, I was only bartending three days a week. I was really grateful. I felt at home there. I was really excited because it's right before Christmas. We had some help from my daughter and her boyfriend.
Eli Roth [00:02:53] Shannon's older daughter, Madison, has the same warm first impression of the house when she sees it.
Madison [00:02:59] When you pull up the house, the house is in a beautiful neighborhood out by the lake. Peaceful, very nice. Full of nature. So it was the perfect place.
Eli Roth [00:03:08] Even though the house is vacant, the Rogers family soon discovers it's far from empty.
Shannon [00:03:14] The previous owners had left some stuff there. The house is absolutely full with, you know, their personal property and belongings. There was a guitar, a lot of things.
Young Madison [00:03:24] Where do you want this?
Young Shannon [00:03:26] Oh, right over here. But I'll take that right now. Thank you.
Eli Roth [00:03:31] Eager to make their new house a home, shannon and Jamie decorate for Christmas with her daughter Madison and Madison's boyfriend, Ed.
Young Shannon [00:03:38] Perfect. You want to hang them on a tree? Here it is. Look.
Eli Roth [00:03:53] When Madison and Ed Leave, Shannon and her son are alone in the house, but she quickly gets the impression they're not really alone.
Young Shannon [00:04:05] Jamie?
Jamie [00:04:10] You can't do that. We live here now. This is our house. We can share. OK.
Young Shannon [00:04:23] Who are you talking to bud?
Jamie [00:04:29] I'm hungry.
Eli Roth [00:04:31] Shannon discovers that Jamie has made friends with someone or something in the shadows while she's freaked out. She doesn't initially panic. The spirits seems friendly enough, but Shannon needs to learn more.
Shannon [00:04:43] I am a spiritual person. I feel energy a lot different than a lot of people almost instantly living in this home. I could definitely sense the presence, and I did find out from the landlord that there was a one time old lady that had lived there and had passed away years ago. I think her spirit was still there because it was her home. This spirit, her presence was very comforting. She was a very proud. I remember that's the pride. This is my home. I kept getting the sensation of This is my home. Look what I've done. I did this by myself. I felt very OK with this being there, that there would be no problems with that.
Eli Roth [00:05:24] At first, Shannon's daughter, Madison, doesn't feel the same.
Madison [00:05:29] I never noticed the spirit. I definitely didn't believe that this stuff was happening. I took the paranormal less seriously than my mom did, I didn't think it was, you know, to be taken seriously
Eli Roth [00:05:41] for the next few weeks. The spirit continues to visit Jamie and Shannon. The two almost get used to its welcoming presence.
Young Shannon [00:05:52] Oh, we got one minute, one minute till show time! I get some of these. And you get some sparkling water.
Jamie [00:06:02] bubbles!
Eli Roth [00:06:02] but on New Year's Eve, the friendly ghost is joined by something else.
Young Shannon and Jamie [00:06:07] Here we go. 10. Nine,.
[00:06:11] There is something much more menacing in this house, and it's about to be awakened.
Young Shannon and Jamie [00:06:19] four. three two one. HAPPY NEW YEAR
Young Shannon [00:06:26] Oh, I love.
Jamie [00:06:29] Mummy. What is that?
Young Shannon [00:06:32] What's what?
Jamie [00:06:33] Behind you?
Young Shannon [00:06:36] There's nothing there. What's wrong?
Eli Roth [00:06:49] As Shannon looks around, the lights begin to flicker and a cold gust blows to the room. Then she sees it. In the dining room hallway. There is a figure standing there watching her.
Shannon [00:07:14] This wasn't the same as the spirit of this elderly woman. This was different, things started getting really rough. I could have never predicted what was about to happen next.
Eli Roth [00:07:28] After seeing the terrifying figure on New Year's Eve, Shannon senses a shift in her home's atmosphere. While she can't place her finger on it just yet, something definitely feels more hostile.
Shannon [00:07:40] As I walk through the house, I could feel the energy was different. It wasn't the same. I knew that lady was still there. The elderly woman, her spirit was still there, but I knew something else was watching me.
Eli Roth [00:07:55] All the while, Jamie continues to make new, mysterious friends.
Jamie [00:08:00] ooohh bam wow.
Young Shannon [00:08:08] Jamie Jamie, what are you doing?
Jamie [00:08:16] We're playing.
Shannon [00:08:19] My son was spinning around in circles and laughing and giggling and carrying on, and there was no one in the room.
Eli Roth [00:08:31] And then Shannon comes face to face with her son's playmate.
Shannon [00:08:36] There was this little girl standing right there just staring at me straight face, just glaring at me. She looked around and then she was gone. I was kind of in shock that my son was interacting with this spirit. It was alarming
Eli Roth [00:08:55] and it doesn't end there. Later that day, Shannon encounters yet another spirit
Shannon [00:09:00] I had walked past the hallway, and in my peripheral vision, I see a man sitting on my toddler's bed. And of course, I backtracked and I looked. And there is an apparition of a male sitting at the end of my toddler's twin bed, just staring at the window. He was at the edge of his seat, hands on his knees and just kind of rocking and looking panicked and looked and looked at me. Look back at the window and he was a leaner.. I want to say in his thirties, he was very lean, sandy, just like sandy, blond, brownish hair color and the visual of him that apparition of him was the energy that I was feeling, and I could see him in like a black, shadowy figureish essence right there. Just staring at me in the energy I felt off of it was very traumatic and panicked. And it was a lot to take in.
Young Shannon [00:10:01] Who are you?
Ghost [00:10:03] I'm sorry. I didn't want to hurt anyone. Tell my sister. She can have my guitar.
Jamie [00:10:17] Mom? Mom, what's wrong?
Shannon [00:10:23] And it really scared me that the most vulnerable person. It really scared me. The most vulnerable person in my household is where this energy I've been feeling is sitting, you know, on my own, my little boy's bed staring at his window. There was more than one spirit here. I just keep wondering, why is this happening to me
Eli Roth [00:10:52] as the encounters grow more frequent and menacing, Shannon decides she has to figure out what's going on.
Shannon [00:10:59] Instinct told me just right away to start doing some research. I got to understand what's going on and what I'm dealing with.
Eli Roth [00:11:07] Her research leads her to a shocking discovery, the more she digs, the more she uncovers tragic deaths that occurred in and around her home.
Young Shannon [00:11:17] Reminy 29,
Shannon [00:11:21] a man that lived there prior to me, committed suicide before I moved in, and I did research about drownings at the lake and with children. And when I did. Almost instantly, it pops up that there was a girl who had drowned at that lake just a couple of years prior to us moving in. It was a memorial video and then a video that was that child to a tee,.
Young Shannon [00:11:51] That's her.
Shannon [00:11:51] Same appearance, same size. It was her. The spirits and the energy in the house wanted me to know they were there. The house is open season. I was kind of in shock that there were so many spirits in my home. Things started to get really intense. I was talking to my friend, who is the psychic medium, and she said that, you know, a suicide and the kind of knowing the kind of energy that comes with suicides, it can trap other spirits there. He needed closure. Once that happened, he would go. and that once he was gone, anything negative or dark would go with him.
Eli Roth [00:12:37] Shannon believes the first step is to help the suicide victim make peace with his family. Perhaps of his torment ends her's will too. When she moved in, the house was crammed with the belongings of the previous renter. She contacts the landlord and learns the guitar that was left in the upstairs closet belonged to the man who killed himself. The same man she saw at the foot of Jamie's bed.
Shannon [00:13:01] The guitar was relevant because it was his pride and joy.
Eli Roth [00:13:05] Shannon behaves in a very thoughtful and sensitive way here. She wants to be done with a haunting, but instead of just doing an exorcism, she seeks more meaningful closure. She decides to return the guitar to the man's only surviving relative, his sister.
Young Shannon [00:13:23] Hi, how are you, Denise Remini?
Denise [00:13:28] Yes.
Young Shannon [00:13:29] I'm renting the house on AshBridge. Um...I found some things the landlord told me where to find you.
Denise [00:13:42] Thank you. This is so kind. Thank you.
Shannon [00:13:51] The closure he needed was for his family to understand he was sorry and don't be mad at him. And it worked the suicide victim did go. He did go, he went on to where he was supposed to be. I was told that once he left, the other spirits would go with him.
Eli Roth [00:14:11] Things quiet down in the house. But as she tucks in her son for bed one night, she has no idea of the danger lurking in the shadows. We'll be right back with more of Shannon's terrifying story after this short break. Welcome back at this point, Shannon deals with near-constant paranormal encounters inside her home. It's almost as though a seal has been broken and some kind of barrier has been breached. Apparitions pour in at an alarming rate and it all reaches a peak one night shortly after she's gone to bed.
Shannon [00:15:00] I was laying in bed and I looked down the hallway. Something told me to wake up. I was very comfortable in his sleep and I sat straight up and I'm looking at the doorway. All of a sudden, like I would say, 30 40 different shadow figures were billowing out of his room. There were some light blue and amber colored orbs here about this size that were coming out of the room as well and going off towards the kitchen. It was almost like the train pulled up and the doors open and people were coming out. Oh, my gosh. if you haven't had that happen to you, the feeling of seeing something that intense coming from my little of my little child's room. There was something there wanting to hurt my son. It has started getting worse and worse.
Eli Roth [00:15:50] Seeking reassurance and a listening ear, Shannon tries to talk to her daughter about it, but Madison remains skeptical.
Madison [00:15:57] I was like, That's a little creepy, but are you sure you weren't just dreaming or something? At one point, I did think my mom was crazy. I thought that maybe she dreamt it, or, Oh, she's just being dramatic, you know?
Eli Roth [00:16:08] Shannon has no one to believe her and no escape.
Shannon [00:16:12] I had no way out. I had nowhere to go. I had problems that kind of ruined my rental history, so I couldn't just move and sign a lease somewhere else. I just had to sit there and keep trying to fix the problems. I wasn't sleeping much. I was working a lot. And it kind of affects me with coworkers just being real, grumpy, dealing with people working with the public. Affected friendships. I didn't talk to people as much as I had before. I kind of recluse a little bit and I was a social butterfly before that house.
Eli Roth [00:16:45] The stress of her situation begins to eat away at her, and it's not just herself. She has to worry about. These spirits seeming hell bent on attaching to her young son. Shannon decides to get to the bottom of her hunting once and for all, and reaches out to someone who knows exactly what's going on.
Shannon [00:17:03] I decided to get help from the psychic medium.
Eli Roth [00:17:06] Shannon learns in the medium that the man's suicide ripped open a portal to the other side from within her home. While she's reassured to know the cause of her torment, she realizes it's entirely up to her to close the portal. It's a daunting task, but there's no other choice. If she doesn't, something much more sinister might slip through
Shannon [00:17:28] because of the suicide there had been a portal opened in the house. When you have a portal, you have both good and negative energy coming through. There's no filter. It's very dangerous to have an open. You need to close it.
Eli Roth [00:17:42] Shannon drops her son off at her mother's house, and she and the medium get to work on sealing the rift between the living and the dead.
Shannon [00:17:50] The portal needed to be closed, and that was my family. The psychic medium came in with a game plan to try to fix it. There's something that you can do. You can use aids like red brick dust with some cinnamon and thyme and some crushed egg shells.
Eli Roth [00:18:11] And since the activity seems to be strongest in Jamie's room, that's where they begin. They take the mixture and coat the window indoor frames with it.
Young Shannon [00:18:21] This is where it's been the strongest.
Medium [00:18:23] This is probably where he killed himself.
Eli Roth [00:18:27] After they use the mixture to close the portal, they recite a prayer of protection to seal it, shut
Medium [00:18:34] May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou ohprince of the heavenly host by the power of God cast into hail Satan and all the evil spirits who go through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
Young Shannon [00:18:51] Coming.
Eli Roth [00:18:53] After the ceremonies finished, the House feels different, cleansed. Feeling relaxed for the first time in months, Shannon offers a glass of wine to the medium.
Young Shannon [00:19:04] Hmm. Give me one of these.
Young Shannon [00:19:07] You're not a smoker, are you? It's a nice house. I'm envious.
Eli Roth [00:19:13] But the evil isn't gone. It's found a new place to reside.
Young Shannon [00:19:19] Yeah. Too bad the old woman's gone. I kind of liked having a free babysitter. You know, if it wasn't for all the evil and the pain and the blood.
Medium [00:19:47] Shannon.
Shannon [00:19:56] She said I just started laughing at her, and I remember just kind of getting a little. Just kind of staring at her, getting an edge a little bit. But she said I was laughing at her and started laughing really hard at her and wouldn't stop laughing and that I lit up a cigaret in my house, which I don't do and like, threw it in her hair.
Young Shannon [00:20:13] Megan.
Medium [00:20:14] I can't help you with this.
Young Shannon [00:20:16] Megan.
Shannon [00:20:17] She was very, very nervous and I didn't have any recollection of it. We'd only had a couple of drinks just sitting there after the thing was done and we were visiting. It's it's a very weird sensation. I mean, I don't really remember too much of it. Oddly enough, I just really don't remember when it was happening.
Young Shannon [00:20:35] Megan, Megan Wait.
Medium [00:20:39] You need to get out of this house.
Eli Roth [00:20:51] Shannon has succeeded in closing the portal, but something demonic has been trapped on this side and it's sinking its claws into her.
Shannon [00:21:00] I'm living in hell at this point. I'm scared to death of the dark, dark, dark, negative energy at the house . I was really scared. Really scared. I mean, it's just hard to explain to somebody doesn't understand like it got really dark. I had started feeling like I was being watched by something very bad, wanting to hurt me. The sleep deprivation is really getting to me at this point. How can someone sleep when something like this is happening to them
Eli Roth [00:21:37] at this point, every aspect of Shannon's life has been impacted by the hauntings. She no longer allows her son to sleep alone. It seems like she can't turn a corner without seeing a terrifying apparition, and nobody believes her. Not even her daughter. She'd like to move out, but she has no place to go. A darkness takes hold, but despite all this, she still loves her children more than anything and will stop at nothing to help them.
Shannon [00:22:02] My daughter had contacted me and asked me if she could stay with me for a couple of months.
Eli Roth [00:22:07] When Madison and Ed turned to Shannon for help, she doesn't hesitate to open her home.
Madison [00:22:12] We got laid off from my jobs, and so we decided to stay there until we could get jobs, get back on track and get our life back together.
Shannon [00:22:20] But I did tell her that there was something going on in the house. She wasn't really scared.
Young Shannon [00:22:25] Sure, you want to stay here?
Young Madison [00:22:26] Why? Because it's haunted.
Madison [00:22:30] I wasn't concerned about anything. I was excited to be staying with my mother again. I was really excited to be with my brother.
Young Madison [00:22:36] I'm just kidding, mom. Where's Jamie?
Young Shannon [00:22:38] He's inside. He's been asking about you all morning.
Young Madison [00:22:41] Can't wait to see the little guy.
Jamie [00:22:46] Ed! I missed you!
Ed [00:22:46] Hey, squirt, you want to go for a ride.?
Jamie [00:22:47] Yes.
Ed [00:22:49] Let's go, buddy.
Young Madison [00:22:54] Hey, Ed. Ed. What are you doing?
Eli Roth [00:23:16] Over the next few days, Ed's behavior inexplicably changes. Normally, affable Ed exhibits violent mood swings. Something evil seems to have taken hold of him as if trying to speak through him.
Young Madison [00:23:36] Ed. Oh my god.
Young Shannon [00:23:54] What's going on?
Madison [00:23:57] I don't know what, but something latched itself on to him. I have never seen him act the way he did. But the moment that he would step through the door in that house, it was like he was just a person of anger.
Young Shannon [00:24:13] The spirit of targeting him to get to me. I'm not going to let that happen. I had been streaming a show. And they were talking about how to cleanse the dark, dark, negative spirits. She was talking about tar water. So I started doing a lot of research into what it is and what its uses are and how to use it to get rid of the bad stuff and this stuff smells so horrible it is not smell good.
Young Madison [00:24:46] Mom, what are you doing? That smells awful.
Eli Roth [00:24:51] Tar water is very interesting. Like Sage, it's been used for centuries as a way to ward off evil energy. It can work, but you do not want to mess around with this- the stench is indescribable. As the odor of tar water permeates the air of Shannon's house, the evil presence residing within begins to react. But things are about to get way worse before they get any better.
Ed [00:25:15] What is that smell?
Young Madison [00:25:18] What are you doing?
Shannon [00:25:24] That's when the anger in the House really set in the feeling of just I knew something was mad. It's angry and it wants to harm me, and I had no idea how bad things were about to get.
Eli Roth [00:25:41] Maddison and Jamie are about to see their mother come head to head with a dark, tortured spirit.
Shannon [00:25:47] And then I felt too hands like literally graphs my ankle and pull real hard on it didn't pull me off the bed, but it pulled really hard.
Eli Roth [00:25:57] If seeing her mother get violently attacked by an entity doesn't make Madison a believer. What happened next surely will.
Madison [00:26:05] So I turned around, and as I'm standing there, I get like pushed by like a very heavy force. I knew that it was serious and dangerous. I knew at this point it was very real.
Young Madison [00:26:22] Screaming.
Shannon [00:26:30] This thing attacked what I love, you know. This is a huge turning point for me. I'm determined to fight.
Madison [00:26:39] I can't even like put into words just how terrified we were. Like, I just knew that we needed to get out as fast as we could.
Eli Roth [00:26:49] Now that she realizes the evil forces are after her children, Shannon insists Madison leave and take her brother Jamie with her.
Ed [00:26:56] Hurry up.
Young Madison [00:26:58] I'm sorry.
Young Shannon [00:26:59] You need to leave. OK, go. Tell mom. I'll be by later to pick up Jamie. Ok.
Young Madison [00:27:04] OK. Please get out of this house.
Young Shannon [00:27:08] I can't afford anything else.
Ed [00:27:11] Maddy, let's go.
Madison [00:27:13] I was terrified for her and I genuinely felt bad. I was kind of ashamed that I was leaving her in this situation that I knew this dangerous.
Jamie [00:27:26] Mom
Young Shannon [00:27:26] It's OK, honey.
Eli Roth [00:27:29] But Shannon has a plan. She must face whatever is tormenting them alone.
Shannon [00:27:35] I'm not going to let it defeat me. I'm going to fight back. I'm going to win.
Young Shannon [00:27:41] What do you want from me? What did I do wrong? Show yourself. Oh, please stop it. Stop it, stop it.
Eli Roth [00:28:19] When the demon finally decides to show itself, Shannon is so horrified by what stares back at her that she regrets ever instigating contact.
Shannon [00:28:30] The silhouette of a head with pointy ears and had a very muscular upper body. I can see from here and it was kind of hunched.
Shannon [00:28:46] The final straw was seeing that face to face. And it was nothing that I wanted to go to war with. And I folded I I admitted defeat as far as trying to make everything stop. There's nothing else I could do. I couldn't beat it. I couldn't defeat it. And I didn't want to try anymore. I was done
Eli Roth [00:29:07] completely depleted of the energy required to fight this thing. Shannon changes gears and decides to flee.
Shannon [00:29:15] That was hard for me to accept. But it was time to go. People were getting physically harmed. Health was deteriorating. I was losing who I was as a person.
Madison [00:29:30] My whole perspective on the paranormal world completely changed. I never want to go back to this house again.
Eli Roth [00:29:38] Shannon finds comfort being as far away from her home as possible. Seeking refuge, she and Jamie stay with her mother. Recently, Shannon has worked tirelessly to turn her life around after this traumatic experience.
Shannon [00:29:52] I have like a new direction now. I want to use these experiences to help both people and spirits.
Eli Roth [00:30:00] When we caught up with her later, Shannon showed us the RV she had just bought so she could tour the country,
Shannon [00:30:06] getting this RV means a lot to me because it's a new beginning. It absolutely is. I have freedom. If things get really bad where I'm at, I can just get a truck and pull it somewhere else. You know, that's that's some freedom that some peace of mind for myself. I don't feel so isolated and stuck in a bad situation anymore because I was stuck and I don't want to ever be stuck again.
Eli Roth [00:30:29] Shannon shared with us that her experience inspired her to help others suffering from paranormal agony. She plans on using the RV to travel the country, helping other victims.
Shannon [00:30:40] I live, eat, sleep, breathe the paranormal field now, and I host investigations around the country. I interact with spirits and the people there. I've been able to really talk people through a lot of that stuff. So... Despite all the terror and horror that happened in that home, I mean, I've come out of it, I've come ahead.
Eli Roth [00:31:00] Since the initial encounter, Shannon continues to have paranormal experiences, but she refuses to let this be the end of her story. Even though she's been plagued with absolutely terrifying visions for the better part of three years, she still prioritizes helping others. It's great that people like Shannon are creating a space for victims to tell their story and hopefully get the help they need. If you want to hear more real, terrifying stories like this, go to Discovery Plus and check out my TV series: Eli Roth presents A Ghost Ruined My Life. If you have an experience you want to share with us, visit Cream Productions dot com slash submissions to find out how. IfyYou want to learn more about the podcast TV show and what we're up to go to travel channel dot com slash A ghost Ruined my life. If you or someone you know is struggling with depression and or suicidal thoughts, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one 800 273 8255 or visit Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot org. Learn how to help someone in crisis at be the one to dot com. That's B-E-T-H-E number one T-O- Dot Com. A Ghost Ruin My Life with Eli Roth is produced by Cream Productions for Discovery Plus. For Discovery Plus, our executive producer is Marissa Lucy for Cream Productions are executive producers are Eli Roth, Johnny Kalangis, Kate Harrison and David Brady. Our story producers are Zeta Ward, Adam Prendergast and Justin Kinch our audio producers are Jody Cohlero, Asha Dillon and Chris Cobain. Our mix engineer is Damien Current. Our music was composed by Alex Casket. Our associate producer is Betty Johnson, and our production manager is Matt McClellan. Our writers are Amen Kasasian, Johnny Kalangis and Betty Johnson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you on the other side.